What's NATO without America?

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The 32 members of the NATO alliance are in the Netherlands for a summit that has been overshadowed by efforts to de-escalate tensions in the Middle East.

World leaders are being encouraged to set a goal to spend 5% of their GDP on defence by 2035. US President Donald Trump has pushed for that target, but does he have a plan on what's next for NATO?

On today's episode, Niall Paterson is joined by security and defence editor Deborah Haynes, who is at The Hague with a front row seat to the meeting.

This episode contains bad language.

Producer: Emily Hulme

Editor: Rosie Gillot

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